AsymWarfare Demo Charges probably in need of quick fix

[HELLOBANANAPHONE]

I know I have the other thread going for general balancing of Asymmetric Warfare, but a Tier 1-Tier 3 early game halftrack demo charge rush is relatively insane against U.S, and I wanted to bring specific attention to it. Links to replays are included. The first two are the most abusive examples, but the third hinges on demo charge use as the game-changing factor in a longer-running game (before I realized you could demo rush).

http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=282829
http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=282827
http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=282824

Edit: Additional demo charge abuse
http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=282856

[Campaigner]

It's not as bad as you think. You gotta have the following to succeed:

The Vehicle workshop

One APC

(Preferably) two - three Special Forces or Engineers for democharging duty

Enough munitions

Assymetric doctrine

Then you have to drive all the way to his base and into it. Then unload the Engineers and/or Special Forces and throw the democharges (and they take more damage when they throw a democharge).
In the Forestmap replay, you lost the two Special Forces squads you used to demo two of his buildings with! That's a significant loss!

Also factor in that you normally choose between the Vehicle Workshop and the Armor Command. I can't recall a game where the PLA player built both.

On Senlin Likou, you had the two +10 fuels for quite a while which gives you much more fuel than the opponent which means you'd win no matter the faction or doctrine. If your opponent can't stop you from getting both +10 fuels on Senlin Likou and holding them for five minutes then he deserves to lose. Also, you NEED a great fueladvantage to be able to go tier 1 ---> tier 3 like you did. Building all those PLA Pumas takes lots of fuel but you had already won by then. Democharging his buildings just sped up the process. If you had gone The Future is Now instead then the extra health to PLA vehicles would have helped you greatly as you had so many.

And as you said, Assymetric doesn't get a MBT, thus needing something powerful of a different type


Finally, US with CQB can V1 your base and that thing does AoE damage. They just need vision and plenty of munitions as opposed to all the things I listed above. If you aim to hit multiple buildings they will get significantly hurt but not destroyed.

[Sleepylion]

I don't think so! That demo charge really needs a fix. I played against Banana in 1 of those replays. The only reason he won that match because he demo rushed my base, blew my tier 2 building twice while i was upgrading to MGS Stryker. If he hadn't done that, the moment he got those 3 BMPs, I would have had at least 2 MGS Stryker waiting for him. I did make mistake losing a Hummve so early, but it was no fatal as I managed to comeback from that, but that Demo charge abuse really screw me up.

Moreover, PLA always has MBTs at disposal regardless of doctrine choice, so dont tell me that Assymetric need 1 hit-building killing charge because it has no super tank like the other 2 docs. Air superiority also has no tank, and it's far from being underpowered.

If that demo charge doesn't get fixed, then all the PLA players will just go for Assymetric Warfare and forget about the other docs.

They should change demo charge to: 1 hit for tier 1, 2 for tier 2 and 3 for tier 3, or at least increasing the ammo cost for it.

[Campaigner]

I don't think so! That demo charge really needs a fix. I played against Banana in 1 of those replays. The only reason he won that match because he demo rushed my base, blew my tier 2 building twice while i was upgrading to MGS Stryker. If he hadn't done that, the moment he got those 3 BMPs, I would have had at least 2 MGS Stryker waiting for him. I did make mistake losing a Hummve so early, but it was no fatal as I managed to comeback from that, but that Demo charge abuse really screw me up.

And the only reason you won our match was because you got that Abrams out which Assymetric PLA have no answer for. On the other hand, you could have build a missiletripod like you did against me, keeping something in the base or put down some mines (which are effective against everything, unlike PLA mines....). If the engineer throwing the charge gets killed, another engineer has to start the process all over again.
But tell you what, democharge rises in cost and the Abrams does the same or loses speed or armor and we can talk

Moreover, PLA always has MBTs at disposal regardless of doctrine choice, so dont tell me that Assymetric need 1 hit-building killing charge because it has no super tank like the other 2 docs. Air superiority also has no tank, and it's far from being underpowered.

PLA Type 59Ds cannot compare to Abrams or even less the Abrams TUSK. There's another thread here where Banana shows that 4-5 Type59Ds LOSES to an Abrams. Some shots PING of the armor and the last shots don't get many hits. It's like that Tiger bug where it has 5% health left and nothing can penetrate its armor.
Type 96 is stronger than Type 59D but not much stronger. It's also really expensive at 1000 manpower (760 really because you get a Tankhunter squad as well though I would rather get a stronger tank).
Assymetric Warfare is for winning early since it can't stand up in the lategame like the other two can.
It's so risky to go into the US base and democharging the buildings. Anything that can hurt vehicles can very well mean the end of the APC. One retreating Javelinsquad will definetly take it out. And retreating over the whole map can very well mean the end of all those retreating squads.

If that demo charge doesn't get fixed, then all the PLA players will just go for Assymetric Warfare and forget about the other docs.

They should change demo charge to: 1 hit for tier 1, 2 for tier 2 and 3 for tier 3, or at least increasing the ammo cost for it.

After US have some antitank, it's too risky to do baserushes. Before that though, it can work.

[Sleepylion]

Getting a look at PLA's armory, PLA has every kind of units regardless of doctrine choice, US has to go for Armored and Close quarter for Abrams, while PLA always has Type59, and don't complain that Type59's weak because it can't stand against an Abrams. Type59's like a Sherman, it's an all around tank, and cheaper to deploy than Abrams, which is like a Tiger, you don't let 5 Shermans go fighting face to face against a Tiger, you flank it, surround it and kill it. You have 5 tanks and still lose to 1, that's your problem, not the tank.

Moreover, I was winning way before i got that Abrams, you did a stupid thing upgrading all your BMP to anti-tank gun, made them useless against Javeline and infantry. Moreover, you had anti-tank guns, which is deadly against all US's armor but Abrams, but you didn't make use of them.

PS: As for AsymWarfare, I think they should rework the tree a little bit. Make Demo Charge an unique ability for Spec Ops, reduce CP cost for Spec Ops down to 3. That way, by the time Spec Ops hit the field, US players should have had some tier 2 units out already, and the loss of tier 2 building wouldn't be so fatal. It may be annoying to build another one but that is acceptible. And I would rather have some Spec Ops sneak into my base and blow it up than have 3 engineers ride an APC into my base and destroy everything "like a boss". About demo charge's replacement, they should change it into some ability similar to Royal Commando's Triangle thing, I think it fits Asymwarfare very well. What do you guys think?

[HELLOBANANAPHONE]

Link to the unkillable Abrams: http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=282915

You'll note that the Abrams is as fast (or faster) than Type 59D, so a well microed Abrams can't really be flanked no matter how many tanks you have (as is demonstrated in that replay).

As a side-note: 5 Shermans with 76mm upgun will win against a Tiger, but lose against a King Tiger if not flanking (leaving the King Tiger with between 25% and 50% health, depending). 5 M10s/Hellcats will win definitively against either tank with or without flanking, which exposes China's real weakness against the Abrams: lack of any non-doctrinal fast tank destroyer.

Also note from this replay (somewhere around the 20 min mark): http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=282914
that a Bradley can do decent (not great, but decent) damage to a Type 59D with its 25mm chaingun, and with the TOW missile upgrade has a relatively decent chance of winning 1v1 against a Type 59D if it can get two TOW missiles off.

On the flip side, in testing against the AI, 3 U.S.A. ATGM Strykers or LAVs seem to be able to win hands-down against the ZTZ99 without flanking. You'll also see in this replay: http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=282977 some ZTZ99 vs. Abrams action.

Thread for discussing balancing Asymmetric Warfare: http://coh-moderncombat.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=79

In particular, I was suggesting ULTRA decryption over Radio Triangulation, because Asymmetric Warfare already has the ZZC02 radar vehicle, which reveals a pretty decent chunk of the map already and is said to be getting a buff soon. Having both Radio Triangulation and the ZZC02 would be redundant. I also really like the ZZC02, so I'm not a big fan of suggestions to remove it.

[Sleepylion]

I didn't know they had buffed Abrams that much, it seemed pretty balanced in previous patches. If it's that OP, then they should do some thing about it. And the radar thing is only a suggestion to replace Demo Charge. If Asym already has something similar, we can suggest something else.

[SnappingTurtle]

I'd rather see the Abrams reduced to one call in per match than nerfed so that there's a bigger reward for taking it down. It should require a mixed anti tank force to keep it at bay and destroy it. The Type 59 seems to act like a regular Sherman, it's not good against heavy armour but it can heavily damage the armour of any buildable US vehicle.