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Balancing PLA

Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:20 pm
by HELLOBANANAPHONE
Aside from some minor bugbears mentioned already (Mass Type 59Ds vs. Abrams, U.S. mines not working, flamethrowers being very powerful, Asymmetric Warfare having some dead abilities), I think PLA is a relatively well balanced, versatile faction. There are some minor changes I would bring up for consideration for fine tuning though.

Militia: Militia are maybe a little too effective for their cost, especially en masse (though not as effective as flamethrowers). Suggest increasing build cost to 250 from 240, and increase reinforce cost from 21 to 22.

Regulars: Regulars seem to die very, very quickly relative to Army Riflemen, and the marksman rifle upgrades don't seem to appreciably increase their damage output when not using Marksman Shot in my experience. I would probably suggest somewhere around a 10% health increase.

Tank Hunters: One unit of Tank Hunters w/extra RPG can completely nullify a fast Stryker or LAV, which is a major step up from the deterrent that having a single schreck gren squad would be to a fast M8. Tank Hunters seem to be quite accurate at long ranges, and it only takes 3 shots to destroy a Stryker or LAV unless it's got level 1 defensive veterancy or cage armor. M8s are similarly easy to destroy, but panzerschrecks are significantly less accurate, and significantly more expensive to get access to. Suggest lowering RPG-7 accuracy vs. Strykers, LAVs, and Marine APCs by probably 10 percentage points at medium and long ranges, and give Regulars access to a sticky-bomb like ability. Alternatively, give Militia the ability to purchase sticky-bombs as a per-squad upgrade for 25 munitions per squad, unlockable by building Tier 2 or Tier 3. This second option would give Tier-1 to Tier-3 strategies some additional help to prevent their first AT gun from being circle-strafed by a fast vehicle tech, while not giving PLA access to anti-tank abilities directly in tier 1.

105mm cannon accuracy vs. vehicles: Both the ZBD-05 105mm cannon and the Type 59D 105mm cannon seem to be quite inaccurate against vehicles. It can be seen in a couple of my replays that a ZBD-05 with 105mm upgrade is not able to kill a Humvee. It takes 3 shots from the 105mm cannon to kill the Humvee, and I'll be lucky if 2 out of 5 shots hit (though some of these are while on the move). Similarly, the Type 59D seems to miss most other vehicles at medium ranges more than I would expect.

Tier 4 Anti-Tank specialist: I've mentioned before (in relations to countering Abrams) that PLA lacks any kind of effective tier-4 mobile anti-tank. This next part is purely speculative not based on any in-game experience, but I think it's an interesting idea. Move the ZTZ-96 to tier 4, price it like a Panther, and make it ineffective against infantry, like a Panther. Replace the "Last Push" ability in Full Mobilization with an Off-Map Combat Group-like ability, priced at 900 or 1000 manpower. Last Push would guarantee a Regular squad (maybe upgraded?) and one Anti-tank unit, and one additional unit (anti-infantry or anti-tank), with the potential for another anti-infantry unit if popcap allows. The list of anti-infantry units would be: Regulars, MG, mortar, 30mm ZBD-05. The list of anti-tank units would be: Tank Hunters (w/ extra RPG), AT gun, the Full Mob doctrinal tank destroyer, and Type 59D. "Last Push" basically makes me think of throwing everything you've got left at a problem, and that's pretty much how OMCG works out most of the time it seems.

Thoughts?

Re: Balancing PLA

Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:51 am
by thatguy
I'm on board with all these suggested changes to Militia, Tank Hunters and Regulars.

As for a lack of effect mobile AT late game, I think PLA is ok because Future has 1 powerful highly mobile option (ZTZ-99) and 1 powerful defensive option (PF launcher) plus AT mines. Mobilisation has 2 very solid mobile options (ZTZ-96 and the tank destroyer.) Assymetric still gets Spec Ops with PF launchers which are fairly strong and considering all there early powerful bounses I think a lack of late game mobile AT is a fair trade-off. Eventhough these are all doctrinal options 5/6 of the sides in the PLA doctrine trees have at least one pretty powerful AT option.

Re: Balancing PLA

Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:10 pm
by HELLOBANANAPHONE
So I actually used the SpecOps PF-98 today, and I gotta say, they're worthless. http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=283331

400 manpower, 75 munitions, and 8(!) popcap for a 4-man squad that dies *very* easily and costs 50 to reinforce, is relatively short range, can't cloak on the move (so no offensive ambushes), and seems to have only marginally (at best) more effectiveness than a single RPG. I'll probably end up trying them a couple more times to get a better sense for them, but as of right now I would not recommend this upgrade to anyone, ever, under any but the most dire circumstances (i.e. your tier 2 got destroyed, you have no anti-tank, and there is a bradley in your base) Even then, this choice is probably still not worth it.

You'll also see some RPGs and PF-98s bouncing on TUSK rear armor, and I'm pretty sure a couple PF-98s bounce on the Bradley front armor.

Other highlights: Sniper accuracy is messed up against targets in buildings. It's more visible in this partial replay (connectivity problem): http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=283332, but in the first replay shown here, towards the end of the game, I have two Regulars squads shooting at a marine squad in a building by ManBearPig's base munitions point. I used both squad's marksman shots, and only killed one guy. In this replay, I try to snipe a machine gun out of the watchtower next to my base, with little success.

Vet 3 defensive marine decaps, then caps, a strategic point, while under close range fire from two BMPs, and takes no casualties. I realize Marines have been rebalanced a lot, but figured I should point this out.

I think there was a situation at the left hand side victory point, around the middle of the game, where a Marine squad in green cover ends up getting suppressed/pinned by one of my machine guns, but the marine squad standing right next to it in no cover only ever gets suppressed.

Re: Balancing PLA

Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:14 pm
by I_am_a_Spoon
Watched the first replay. I agree about the PF-98.

Re: Balancing PLA

Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:51 pm
by Firesparkz
HELLOBANANAPHONE wrote:Other highlights: Sniper accuracy is messed up against targets in buildings. It's more visible in this partial replay (connectivity problem): http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=283332, but in the first replay shown here, towards the end of the game, I have two Regulars squads shooting at a marine squad in a building by ManBearPig's base munitions point. I used both squad's marksman shots, and only killed one guy. In this replay, I try to snipe a machine gun out of the watchtower next to my base, with little success.

As I recall, Vcoh sniper used to have less than full accuracy versus garrisoned infantry building, but it was changed to have full accuracy against garrisoned infantry. MC started development before that particular change and didn't use it.

Re: Balancing PLA

Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:00 pm
by I_am_a_Spoon
Just checked, they currently have 75% accuracy against garrisoned infantry.

Re: Balancing PLA

Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:04 pm
by Firesparkz
http://community.companyofheroes.com/fo ... ease-Notes



Snipers

Accuracy vs garrisoned units increased from 75% to 100%


so yeah, the sniper rifle could probably use an update

Re: Balancing PLA

Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:25 pm
by Firesparkz
I'm pretty sure a couple PF-98s bounce on the Bradley front armor.


I believe that was a RPG your spec ops picked up.

Re: Balancing PLA

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:47 pm
by HELLOBANANAPHONE
You can tell which one is which because the PF-98 has a much larger rocket flare. So yes, one of my SpecOps has an RPG in addition to the PF-98, but you can tell which rockets are which, especially in the last engagement where there are two PR-98s and three RPGs.