Doctrine Balancing (Asymmetric Warfare)

[HELLOBANANAPHONE]

I'd like to know what everyone thinks about how the doctrines are balanced. From what I've seen, there appear to be the "big four" doctrines that end with the main battle tanks, and Assymetric and Airborne are kind of left by the wayside. Note that I like all of the abilities in Assymetric and Airborne, but I think they are over-costed compared to the advantages of getting those main battle tanks later in the game.

I realize making new abilities takes a lot of work, so the below suggestions are based solely on the existing abilities, rather than changing abilities to new ones.

I also realize I'm new around here, but I've spent quite a lot of time in vCoH automatch and am very familiar with the vCoH game balance. If anyone would like to show me something I missed or provide a counter-argument in-game, feel free to send me a message and we can try to set up a time for a friendly 1v1 (I currently appear to be better as China than America though).

Asymmetric:
Pros: Highly versatile doctrine for those looking more for "support" and less for game winners or brute force. Global stealthed infantry ability plus elite infantry, amazing recon, and delaying tactics.
Cons: Everything is generally too expensive in terms of manpower or munitions, or comes too late to make the impact it should. No off-map (or on-map) artillery or abilities whatsoever aside from Logistical Warfare, which doesn't really count along those lines. No explicit anti-vehicle/anti-tank measures (I'm not sure the covert ops soldiers with a single PF-98 coming in at 6 CPs really count) Additionally, the U.S. CQC doctrine gets Green Berets at 3 CPs *AND* has access to the TUSK, while Assymetric is left waiting until 6 CPs to get Covert Ops soldiers.
Suggestions:
1. Drop the cost of Logistical Warfare to 50 or 60 munitions (60 is my preferred number) from 75 (it lasts 15 seconds on a single territory; very useful in many situations but not something I find myself saying "Yes, I want to spend 75 munitions on that!).
2. Decrease the cost of the RHS abilities somehow, and rearrange. It's 3 CPs for Guerrilla Warfare, 1 CP for the ZZC02, and 2 CPs for the Covert Ops. My suggestion is to drop Guerrilla Warfare to 2 CPs, then reorder as Guerrilla->Covert Ops->ZZC02. Increase the ZZC02's CPs to 2, maintain its cost, and increase the range of its abilities by 20% or 25%. After all, the player *is* giving up a Main Battle Tank and access to any off-maps, and they should be well compensated for that.
3. If the ZZC02 maintains its current place in the order, drop the cost of the ZZC02 to somewhere between 300 and 350 manpower, contingent on how large the accuracy bonus is (does anyone know?). This is a fully non-combat unit with light armor that dies easily. Its primary purposes (recon and accuracy assist), and the range on its abilities do not let it sit far enough back to stay very safe, and in general its utility (manpower-wise) will generally not match up to that of a Type 59D, which also costs 400 manpower. I realize the Type 59D also costs fuel, but the popularity of the tank in previous tournaments compared to the ZZC02, as well as what many players probably feel is a need to have access to a main battle tank to combat the Abrams and TUSK, really puts the ZZC02 in an awkward position.
4. Decrease the cost of the Demo Charges ability to 1 CP. This ability only works for Engineers and Covert Ops. Engineers are usually not going to be able to make use of it unless you load them in an APC and base-rush, or if the American player leaves his Barracks unprotected in a sector outside his base. SMG stealth CovOps soldiers with demo charges are absolutely nasty though if they sneak into your base...
5. 6 CPs seems a little late for the anti-air tank to be rolling onto the battlefield, but reordering may require buffing Logistical Warfare. 5 CPs may be okay (if Demo Charge CP price is reduced).

Summary: if everything above were done (prioritizing point 2 over point 3), Asymmetric Warfare doctrine would then look as follows:
RHS: Guerrilla Warfare (2CP) -> Covert Ops Squad (2 CP) -> ZZC02 (2CP; buffed from current state to increase range)
LHS: Demo Charges (1CP) -> Logistical Warfare (2CP, price dropped to 60 munitions) -> Anti-Air Tank
Total CPs: 11 (was 12) (For comparison, a CQC player can get both Green Berets AND a TUSK on the field at 12 CPs)

Thoughts?

[Campaigner]

Agreed. Assymetric is a fun doctrine but it's very microintensive to get full use out of it. The other two doctrines give don't have that requirement.

The radarvehicle (ZZCO2 - like I'm gonna remember THAT!) need a buff. I would give it double visionradius and quadruple "seeing blips through the FoW" in lockdown mode.
I'm also thinking about an ability for it.

Antenna overcharge, 10 Munitions - Reveals double the visionradius for 10s

Logistical Warfare is absurdly expensive for the length of time it lasts. It's crap. I'd massively buff it or take it out.


Overall, the doctrines don't add as much av vCoH and doesn't affect the game as much. That may be by design but I'd be tempted to make them affect more.

[Darkbladecr]

ZZC02 really is not a late game unit, while the spec ops are pretty nasty against the US, not only do they get passive camo, but with SMGs they can move around the field and destroy anything they want.

The ZZC02 is due for a buff and the Logistic warfare will be reduced in cost.

I think you slightly understimate the power of being able to booby trap everything and then being able to make your whole army invisible. It is all about how you use these abilities.

You booby trap a prominent fuel/VP you stick the squad in cover and Hold Fire. Riflemen come to cap, they may or may not move out of the way of the blast, and then you finish them off with your squad ambush. This is an extremely powerful tactic.

You can couple the ZZC02 minimap vision with the PLA mortar or MLRS weapons for the best damage/hits.

[SnowBlaZeR2]

You booby trap a prominent fuel/VP you stick the squad in cover and Hold Fire. Riflemen come to cap, they may or may not move out of the way of the blast, and then you finish them off with your squad ambush. This is an extremely powerful tactic.

I lost 3 squads of MARSOC to one squad of PLA SOF with that tactic. Pissin me off.

[Campaigner]

The ZZC02 is due for a buff and the Logistic warfare will be reduced in cost.

Great!
Are we talking double vision or half manpower cost?

I think you slightly understimate the power of being able to booby trap everything and then being able to make your whole army invisible. It is all about how you use these abilities.

It can be very powerful but requires awesome micromanagement. Especially using hold fire while hiding. Boobytrapping I can do but hold fire and timing that correctly.... >_<

You can couple the ZZC02 minimap vision with the PLA mortar or MLRS weapons for the best damage/hits.

I would like to use it like that but it gives so little vision that that tactic doesn't work.

I can't recall right now how (or even IF) you saw enemies through the FoW. Have you changed that? Can you make it like in StarCraft II ?


Your efforts are definetly appreciated

[I_am_a_Spoon]

Starcraft II?

[Campaigner]

Starcraft II?

The exclamationmarks are units in the fog of war.

[HELLOBANANAPHONE]

ZZC02 really is not a late game unit, while the spec ops are pretty nasty against the US, not only do they get passive camo, but with SMGs they can move around the field and destroy anything they want.

The ZZC02 is due for a buff and the Logistic warfare will be reduced in cost.

I think you slightly understimate the power of being able to booby trap everything and then being able to make your whole army invisible. It is all about how you use these abilities.

You booby trap a prominent fuel/VP you stick the squad in cover and Hold Fire. Riflemen come to cap, they may or may not move out of the way of the blast, and then you finish them off with your squad ambush. This is an extremely powerful tactic.

You can couple the ZZC02 minimap vision with the PLA mortar or MLRS weapons for the best damage/hits.

Don't get me wrong, I like Asymmetric Warfare the best of all the doctrines, it very much suits my play style.

I started as a primarily Panzer Elite player using Scorched Earth quite a lot, so I'm aware of how effective (and ineffective) booby traps can be. Booby traps are one of those things that have a disproportionately larger effect against less skilled players, but more skilled players just simply won't care. Personally even though booby traps are flavorful, I'd rather see Asymmetric Warfare getting a different free ability; I think the booby traps are poorly implemented mechanically in Opposing Fronts and are one of those very clearly "not fun" abilities.

On troop camouflage: Yes, it's very, very good. It doesn't apply to crew-served weapons like MGs, Mortars and AT guns though (which would be ridiculous if it did; I'm not suggesting it should). Playing a couple games with it, it feels like it comes slightly too late to get anything out of the doctrine compared to the alternative (det charges for 2 CPs that only engineers can use? 6 CPs for the Wirbelwind?), and the options available to the other doctrines (side notes: Airborne Recon Run and A-10 Strafe seem overcosted at 2 and 5 CPs to reach respectively, could maybe drop Recon Run to 1 CP and A-10 to 4 CP by proxy, and it seems like Overwhelming Firepower should drop to 1 CP and TUSK up to 5 or 6 CPs). If the alternatives on the LHS of Asymmetric were improved as new abilities (see below), Camouflage would be viable at 3 CPs.

Also, yes, spec ops are nasty against the U.S., and they should be, but are they nastier than Green Berets against PLA? It's a question I don't think I can answer right now, but there are a ton of questions and comments running through my head on that topic, but that's why we have this discussion forum. Does their nastiness make up for not getting a main battle tank? Their location and price in the doctrine suggest they should be, since they come twice as late as Green Berets, yet the PLA army is the more "static forces" army with crew-served machine guns, mortars and anti-tank guns that are prime targets for Green Berets and don't benefit from the Camouflage ability. U.S. has Javelin teams, and that's pretty much it (I've gotten the impression that US players often don't build machine guns). Are PF-98s a good enough to choose over SMGs? I haven't gotten a chance to test them against another player, but just against the computer it doesn't seem like it stacks up very well as an alternative to the SMGs compared to the Green Beret's .50cal. The .50cal might be a bit less effective against heavy armor, but it also lets the team function as a 4-man sniper squad, is much longer range, and has access to the all-powerful Tread Breaker ability, which is worth far more than extra damage/penetration against heavy armor would be; this makes it a proven viable alternative to both SMGs and having another javelin team. With the PF-98, Spec Ops only get the passive cloak, which Tankbuster Squads get as well; is the PF-98 good enough that you'd choose to spend the additional manpower, munitions, and popcap in excess of what an upgraded Tankbuster squad would cost instead of just buying a tankbuster squad?

If I had a wishlist for Asymmetric Warfare, where I could make new abilities to address some of these things...

Free Ability: As I said above, I don't think Booby Traps are really much of a fun mechanic, even if they are flavorful. There are a couple things I might replace this with:
1. Militia and Regulars get Infantry-Doctrine style Defensive Operations (can lay barbed wire, sandbags, tank traps, mines, etc.). Might be slightly too powerful for a free ability.
2. Swap in Full Mobilization's engineer-reclaim+militia-molotovs ability (asymmetric is going to have less "resources" so is going to need everything it can get, while Full Mob is putting the entire force of the Chinese economy and population behind the military) and give Full Mob a new ability in that place. Again, might be a little too powerful for a free ability.
3. Move the Engineer/Spec-Ops det-charge ability here.
4. Upgrades Tank Traps to PE-style Barricades.

Left Hand Side:
Ability 1: Militia and Regulars get Defensive Operations, or use the reclaim/molotovs ability here (1CP)
Ability 2: Whichever of the above two abilities was not used for ability 1 (1CP) OR Commando-style Decryption (1CP)
Ability 3: Logistical Warfare (100-150 munitions, lasts for 20-30 seconds) Instantly suppresses (but will not pin) any enemy infantry in, or entering, the targeted sector (3CP).

Right Hand Side:
Buff ZZC02 some, take a look at Spec-Ops PF-98 ability. If det charges were removed from the tree, give them as a base ability to Spec-Ops, it'll help some to justify their 6 CP cost compared to the Green Beret's 3 CP cost (plus ability to get a TUSK later).

And, as I said in my first post, if anyone wants to show me anything I may have missed since I am relatively new to Modern Combat 1v1 (but not to CoH 1v1), I'd be willing to try to set up a time for a game.

Edit for Campaigner: The Panzer Elite Vampire Funkwagen has a radar ability kind of like that Starcraft 2 radar, and it seems like the ZZC02 has vision slightly less than a Chinese mortar, but it then has a Radar ability out to the full range of a Chinese mortar.

Double Edit: Det-Charge damage should be reduced probably; right now it 1-shot nukes any U.S. building except the HQ (including tier 3). It should be reduced enough so that it at least doesn't destroy the Tier 3 building in one shot.